Realish steel ammo limits

I'd love to see a proliferation of bolt actions, we did pretty well as Op Ariel, but folks will keep recommending new players to buy an AEG as their first gun, which doesn't help!

It would help if the manufacturers turned out an affordable period one. A basic springer K98 and N0.4 would do wonders for the WW2 scene I think.
As for mag ammo limits I`m hooked on locaps ever since I got my MP40, so nice not to hear the bloody BB`s rattling around as I run. Although I`m not keen on the idea of 30 round mags, bit too low a capacity, 50 to 100 wouldn`t be too bad.

I also agree with the rule of thumb that one real round = 3 BBs, for AEGs anyway.

Real WW2 ammo loadaouts were approx 100 rounds of rifle ammo per man, 200 per SMG and 1,000 - 1,500 rounds per LMG distributed through the section, with further stores back with the company transport. MMGs have anything up to 7,000 rounds, if not more for specific operations.

From an airsoft pov, the main thing is to limit ammo (I've done 100 round games, which were pretty interesting, as well as plenty of 300 round ones) to prevent tedious long range plinking, but it can also produce completely stupid stuff like people running in zig zags the open as they know no-one is going to waste precious BBs on such a tough target, whereas IRL they'd be mown down. Even I can hit a running man with a real rifle at 100m (on the range anyway:), and I'm no marksman.

The 300 round limit at Devils Hill seemed to work OK, it depends what resupply is available and how it is handled. If you aren't going to have any re-sup at all, at least not during a single day, then use the real loadouts as a guide but multiplied by two or three. Of course what you'll then find is the MG gunners giving their spare ammo to the riflemen, which isn't very realistic either...

mid caps, low caps whatever is fine, nothing like fumbling a mag change in the middle of a firefight, but it does depend on cost and availability.

I'll sometimes go a whole day at an open day and only fire a few hundred rounds, so it partly depends on play style.

Cheers
Martin

I did recall a conversation with one site operator ( can't remember who now) who said when they did "mil sim" events there were no ammo limits. They did however ban loose ammo and hi caps . This meant that some guys went out carrying 15 mid caps, and were slower and less mobile as a result, or stuck to 4-5 and could run around more. The choice of either was dictated by the mission , the players/commander choice/ and their level of fitness. No matter what they took they couldn't reload in the field . An interesting idea.

I was watching BOB the other night , and it was interesting to see how when the 101st went into Bastogne they relieved the retreating troops of their bandoliers , grenades etc. I'm sure they went into position well over their TO/E typically loads, however would be entirely likely.

I love ammo limits I think it makes people think about what they are doing and burst fire of 2 or 4 rounds rather than hose. In a milsim they add so much to the overall experience.

However its a no go on open days at my local site, I'd have no chance against the hi cap sprayers and I'm not fit enough to use fieldcraft to out manouvre folk!! Im no a chubber, for the record, just unfit!!!

110 round mid caps in my Mp40 are about as near realistic as I would want to get on those days.

is there a way to make hi-caps into mid/lo-cap mags?? Im thinkin maybe mp44 mags here

yes. Load the mag as normal. Wind, then empty excess rounds. Put gun on single and count the shots. You could empty the mag but they never wind all the rounds as they usually work on the rounds behind feeding the top.

A good hicap will feed well enough to push as many rounds through as you like MINUS the amount of rounds from the feed wheel to the top of the mag, these will stay in the tube once the mag is out.

Old'un, sterling have that rule I think, it works fine for their style games as your dead long before you run out, so ammo limits don't affect thief combat missions.

With real steal we haven't got an ammo limit, hence the guys are carrying 20 or 30 mags in tins or banderliers as Well as their 10 on them. Like you say, if you go with a large supply your slow and never combat ready, so it should be something the squad sorts out before they go out(maybe)

Also with MGs having limited limits, say 200 per load, it means they can sustain fire but will need reloads, again adding a tactical value to the senario. I like the idea of runners going back for more ammo. Whilst the fixed MG blasts away at the enemy

Even I can hit a running man with a real rifle at 100m (on the range anyway:), and I'm no marksman.

This comment has left me wondering where you get the men to run and be shot at your range? Are they convicts who volunteer? Why is this sport not televised as a game show like in the film "The Running Man"?

Or are they just daft buggers who want to die like in "The Gamer"?

Sounds like a winning format for Jeremy Clarkson - targets could be caravan owners, cyclists or 'green' people. Mind, he'd take the piss - when the rules state pistols he'll use an M4. Meh, I'd watch.

having a runner re-supieing a fixed mg sounds good but would be a dull day not to mention exhausting for the runner.i use my sten on walk-on days with 5 110 rnd mid-caps and rarely use them all before getting shot and rarely feel outgunned im lookeing forward to taking my enfield along to see how i fare in sniper role.lowering the capacity of hi-caps is easy simply glue inside a small piece of polisyrene (cut from a piece of packing) in a position that doesent block the re-fill port or the feed at the bottom ,usually it can be stuck to the chanel that takes the bb's up from the feed machanism ,just vary the size to the ammo limit ,its easier to weigh bb's on a set of letter scales than count them.this can be easily removed afterward as its only polisyrene.

The runners wouldn't be a fixed role dadio, anyone could run back to a cache and bring another box

It why we run the medic like we do, to stop those roles from taking guys out of the action

"This comment has left me wondering where you get the men to run and be shot at your range?"

It was an Army simulator back in the 70s for the SLR. Basically just a big screen with an image projection on it, which you shoot your rifle at. I went on it at Aldershot using the .22 version of the SLR.

Cheers
Martin

ow... that's just boring!

ow... that's just boring!

LOL. Well, it was actually really good fun, and the .22 SLR was a bit easier on the shoulder than 7.62. Shooting at static targets just isn't the same.

One of my mates had a go on the modern L85 simulator at Catterick, which did sound absolutely amazing - real rifle but with gas to operate the mechanism and wired up to a computer which then runs you through various situations ranging from an ambush up to trying to fight off a formal infantry assault.

Cheers
Martin

Yup the Small Arms Trainer.

The first one I used had a video display that changed depending on whether you hit on not and ad multiple 'paths'.... the one I used in Colchester a short while ago was like MW2.

As said its 'real recoil' via a gas feedback system and coves 9mm pistols, L85/86, Minimi, and even Javelin!

It doesnt just record hits though, its a valuable training tool that records the pressure you apply to parts of the weapon, the angle of cant, grouping, mag reload speed etc and gives you a full diagnostic at the end that can be used to improve the shooters performance.

Its incredibly versatile now and can put sizable enemy forces in front of you (around six lads can use it in support of each other) and can give the enemy armour, helos and other support.

Impressive stuff and far from boring... regretably its something most folk never get a chance to try as the MOD are pretty stingy with it even when you're serving.

I never knew you were in the mob Martin!

I learned how to fire at moving targets by firing at moving targets! These simulators these days are only any good for training recruits or the t.a, who don't get to fire their weapons as much as regular soldiers, nor on such a large scale.

I never knew you were in the mob Martin!

I learned how to fire at moving targets by firing at moving targets! These simulators these days are only any good for training recruits or the t.a, who don't get to fire their weapons as much as regular soldiers, nor on such a large scale.

The Paras would bg to differ though Pete, they've just had a ruddy huge SAT system installed at Colchester and are trying to get the experienced guys to spend lots of time on it rather than recruits (and I'm pretty sure its not available to the TA either)

Edit: By that Pete I dont mean that i'm doubting your opinion, its more that the HQ of 16 Air Assault seem to have put a lot of faith (and money) in it.. but then again the army dont exactly have a great track record of spending money wisely do they

It's interesting to note that the RTR lads in warminster have been using simulated tank turrets for a *lot* of their training and refreshers for a few years now, my mate Craig (tiny and porta know him) was a senior instructor with 1RTR an he rated SAT and the armoured versions pretty highly and as Porta will probably verify Craigs 'mixed it up' a lot for real too (we was where you were in 91).

Personally I think while they dont (and cant replace) real range experience they're a damn site better than 'no range' because of defence cuts

Not really bothered if you doubt my opinion anyway gadge. You know that I know what I'm talking about and have done it for real. The people that invest our money in these devices are usually inbred morons anyway.

This all totally off topic but, I stick by my opinion that simulators are an expensive waste of time for small arms training. The money they cost would buy millions of live rounds for proper training. Simulators don't let you move, practice battle drills, nor terrain test you or your command and control. Also, the smoke and noise isn't present and, people who rely extensively on simulators inevitably end up shocked at the real sights, sounds, smells and confusion of battle. They are no substitute or preparation for "ass in the grass" soldiering and give a false, sanitised view of a battlefield, just like computer games do.

I did my initial training for Warrior on a simulator and it was totally unlike the real thing, except for teaching the basics of gunnery. All it did was save ammunition! I have also used the small arms simulators and, thought that they were wank, despite what the para's may think (which isn't usually very much and "shiny lights" comes to mind).

I' inclined to agree Pete but i think in a world where the MOD are constantly cost cutting the initial outay of say x million on a SAT system that would buy Y million rounds for 'live fire' in the end regrettably saves 'z million' .

It's not good mate but unfortunatley it's reality. You've been part of the system, to a very limited degree so have I and we both know that the contract always gos to thr lowest bidder.

In a choice between 'simulated fire with recoil, disotientiaing loud noise and smoke generators' or 'bugger all' the former is the best choice. Its still rubbish but its better than nothing and the best we're going to get.

Youre right - it's not a sustitution but you and I are both products of the cold war where we threw money at defence to outbid the soviets. Now thats not the case it's 'on the cheap or not at all'

My point being is that we have a *massive* turnover in forces personel compared to the 80s and 90s in which we gave our respective 'time'. The MOD have to give recruits the best experience they can afford given the funds available.... and as you say .. it's probably not good enough.

However unless you and I take up poltics (that I think is neither of our forte's or desires) were not going to change much.. It's regrettably 'how it is' . Range time is now pretty much SAT time for a lot of serving personel.

I think we're in agreement to be honest but I know i'd like to hear the opinion of chaps like Wraith et al who are still putting time in.

(I realise this has gone massively OT so mods I understand if it gets locked but I think it's developed into it's own interesting discussion on whether 'simulated' training can ever be 'useful')

Once again Pete, I totally agree that if you've put it on the line then VR sims can never replace that; but do they have a place? As someone whose *never* fired a shot in anger I personally felt it useful to judge reaction time, accuracy and skill at arms under a 'simulated' stress but understand from mates who have actually been in similar 'real world' situations also value them highly.

I'm not in a position to judge to be honest. Interested to hear from those that have used them for training and then had contacts.

I personally think that the only real use that these simulators have is to further the "conditioning" of troops to fire at men, rather than targets. That way, they are less likely to hesitate when pulling the trigger on a "live" target. Although, I was trained initially on figure 11, 12 and 14 targets and, I never hesitated when the time came. I don't think a simulator can prepare you for a hot contact in any way.